Long range elk shot with .243 Win (Warning: Graphic)

[gonzo_the_great]

Soooo many threads running here....

Military 50cal:
I believe (and please correct me on any points here)....
The 50BMG cal was originally designed for medium machine guns. Ground/vehicle/aircraft use.
It was only after civilians developed shoulder fired rifles for the calibre, that the military started to look at that application. And initially brought civilian market firearms.
And in military use, it is mostly used in antimateriel roles, ie. against equipment. In sniping use, against lightly armoured equipment/installations or just something you want to put a hole on, such as the engine of an aircraft on the ground. This is mostly because the bullet is big enough, to aloow you st stuff interesting things into it.
Though one may use whatever is at hand is a tight corner, it is not the primary roll to use a 50BMG against soft targets.
Their main useage in modern warefare is using expolsive ammunition, for use in bomb/ordenance disposal.

(The current UK government consultation on banning these guns for civilian target shooters, is badly flawed. As it is the bullets that are the anti-materiel part of the system, and target shooters cannot legally obtain or posess those anyway.
The actual ban proposed will be for higher powered chamberings, which will catch some of the big game calibres. And the consultation seems to have missed that the compensationcosts that are being presented, could be way out if they have to pay up for just one new Holland and Holland double rifle.
I'll got off that soap box now....)


Game shooting:
In the UK, isn't hunting only when you use dogs? Stalking/shooting is when you go out with rucksack and rifle.
Is barrel wear really an issue, for the number of rounds expended on shooting game/zeroing?
.243 is mostly considered to be a fox round in the UK. It is legal for deer over here, but most people I've spoken to feel it to be too low power and risks a less than humane kill. I am in the process of adding a deer rifle to my FAC and have decided to go for 308win. It's a calibre I've used for tagret shooting for decades and would feel happier with the heavier bullet.

 

[Alan De Enfield]

Game shooting:
In the UK, isn't hunting only when you use dogs? Stalking/shooting is when you go out with rucksack and rifle.
Is barrel wear really an issue, for the number of rounds expended on shooting game/zeroing?
.243 is mostly considered to be a fox round in the UK. It is legal for deer over here, but most people I've spoken to feel it to be too low power and risks a less than humane kill. I am in the process of adding a deer rifle to my FAC and have decided to go for 308win. It's a calibre I've used for tagret shooting for decades and would feel happier with the heavier bullet.

My Son swears by his 243 for stalking deer, claiming flatter trajectory and 'if you cannot shoot accurately then you shouldn't be shooting deer',
I have gone for the 303 or 308 (7.62) option using my faithful Lee Enfield's, they are heavy but I can put the shot pretty much where I want it - certainly 1 MOA in either calibre with a ~ 174 grain (303) or ~ 150 grain (308) bullet.

 

[gonzo_the_great]

I agree on that rule. But hitting accuratly and hitting hard just feels like the right thing.

 

[Robson Valley]

Accuracy is always a good thing. For big game, you need down-range foot pounds for that hydrostatic shock wave
and good mass retention as the bullet mushrooms in the hit.
Just because one guy shoots 180gr pills does not mean that they won't shatter in a hit.
I got all I needed for Mule deer bucks with a Sierra 165gr boat tail in .30-'06.

 

[mrostov]

In the early 20th Century the .32-20 with a plain lead bullet was considered adequate for deer in the US. Compared to that, a .243 is a nuclear howitzer. A deer isn't that big. Professional hunters with culling contracts from parks kill them with the .17HMR.

Probably one of the best hunting rounds for it's weight vs what it can do is the .22mag (.22 WMR). While not technically legal for deer it's legally used all of the time to kill alligators, which are large and semi-armored like a dinosaur. The .22mag has the power at 100 yards that a .22lr has at the muzzle. In Argentina it's used for hunting mountain lions (puma).

A .223 is more than powerful enough to kill a deer and it's also used a lot on caribou. The owner of a reindeer farm in Greenland lives off of reindeer (caribou) meat and he uses a .223 caliber Ruger Mini-14. On things like rabbits it's overkill. The .243 has about the same power at 300 yards that a .223 has at the muzzle.

Note that one of the great White hunters of the colonial period, a man named Bell, killed most of his elephants with a 7mm Mauser and a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Shoenauer.

 

[Alan De Enfield]

In the early 20th Century the .32-20 with a plain lead bullet was considered adequate for deer in the US. Compared to that, a .243 is a nuclear howitzer. A deer isn't that big. Professional hunters with culling contracts from parks kill them with the .17HMR.

Probably one of the best hunting rounds for it's weight vs what it can do is the .22mag (.22 WMR). While not technically legal for deer it's legally used all of the time to kill alligators, which are large and semi-armored like a dinosaur. The .22mag has the power at 100 yards that a .22lr has at the muzzle. In Argentina it's used for hunting mountain lions (puma).

A .223 is more than powerful enough to kill a deer and it's also used a lot on caribou. The owner of a reindeer farm in Greenland lives off of reindeer (caribou) meat and he uses a .223 caliber Ruger Mini-14. On things like rabbits it's overkill. The .243 has about the same power at 300 yards that a .223 has at the muzzle.

Note that one of the great White hunters of the colonial period, a man named Bell, killed most of his elephants with a 7mm Mauser and a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Shoenauer.

That is all very true, but in the UK it is hard enough to get a FAC (Firearm certificate) and very easy to lose it - we therefore have to abide by the 'rules', if the law says a minimum of 243 for deer, then a 243 (or bigger) is what we use.

One of the criteria for being granted an FAC is that no one else should have access to your gun cabinet.
A year or two ago, someone I know had a visit from the Police doing a routine inspection. It should have been notified in advance but it wasn't - he was 'just in the area' and called in on the off chance - The FAC holder was out but his wife said "no problem I know where his safe keys are kept".
He had his FAC withdrawn - NO ONE must have access to the guns except the FAC holder - it is the law.

You Yanks are fortunate with your minimal gun-laws, and have a right to wear short sleeved shirts ( right to bare arms !!) we have to fight and justify every little aspect of gun and ammunition ownership.

 

[Janne]

In Sweden, before I left two decades ago, I knew of guys that poached deer and moose with a .22 LR.

Easy to silence, silencers were illegal in those days.

Shot placement and accurancy is hugely important.
Hitting a rabbit in the tail with a 45-70 is not lethal.

Accurancy is why I objected earlier against the clip in the first post.

 

[snappingturtle]

I was wondering about 50 cal is that not about 13mm don't some black powder gun's have a similar bore?

 

[Janne]

Yes. Also .62 cal.
I think even larger exist. Slow, large mass = plenty of energy.

 

[Robson Valley]

Hawkin flintlock black powder rifles (aka "smoke poles") are commonly 50 cal = 0.50 inch.
Long time friend builds them. He's even got a working cannon on wheels!

There are lots and lots of choices here in 30 cal.
While it may not have been a part of your plan for today, you shoot something like a White-tail/Mule deer/Elk or Moose,
You might end up field dressing the critter by yourself. Gun shots mean gut piles.
Your hunting partner will be standing guard because the local wolf pack
or a local grizzly will push you off your kill, if they can. That's life in this man's valley.

 

[snappingturtle]

Yes. Also .62 cal.
I think even larger exist. Slow, large mass = plenty of energy.

Right! say things like the 4 bore and 2 bore gun's, I not sure if I recall this right but I remember something about the express round being first coined with the 4 bore gun's named after a train that that ran with no stops hence "express round"

 

[snappingturtle]

Hawkin flintlock black powder rifles (aka "smoke poles") are commonly 50 cal = 0.50 inch.
Long time friend builds them. He's even got a working cannon on wheels!

There are lots and lots of choices here in 30 cal.
While it may not have been a part of your plan for today, you shoot something like a White-tail/Mule deer/Elk or Moose,
You might end up field dressing the critter by yourself. Gun shots mean gut piles.
Your hunting partner will be standing guard because the local wolf pack
or a local grizzly will push you off your kill, if they can. That's life in this man's valley.

Sounds exciting if a bit unnerving at times!

 

[Robson Valley]

I did the Biology professor thing for decades.
Everybody in the department was a hunter and a fisher, men and women.
Like it was almost a condition of employment.
Guy in the next office had pictures of the Tabor wolf pack, 8 PM, surrounding him, his partner and their moose.
I could see it in his eyes = he was scared spitless, remembering what happened.

Silly here to go out, under-gunned. You need a show-stopper. .300WinMag, .338Lapua, .30/'06 with 180gr.
Even plant collecting (fiddleheads, etc.) now in May/June, I'm wearing a 12 ga with #2 goose loads.
Sows with cubs can just go berserkers. I'm not moving from the top of the food web to the bottom, any time soon.

 

[snappingturtle]

"Top of the food web to the bottom " Ha I like that! and totally agree its not a good Idea!

 

[Janne]

A friend that lives 30 min north of stockholm just visited the islsnd.
Big hunter, deer, moose, boar. He told me there is now a wolf pack living in that area. Deer, moose gone, boar almost gone.
This season he shot no deer or moose. He said he did not see any tracks even.
Bad.
He said the ’wolf huggers’ in Stockholm made sure no wolf hunt is allowed.
No humans attacked yet, just some dogs on leashes.

No fun going funghi collecting from now on.

 

[mrostov]

On the issue of muzzleloaders that was mentioned, the North American frontier really pushed the rifle to the forefront.

In the genteel and settled east, small caliber rifles were normal. However, once White men started crossing the Mississippi they started running into things like the grizzly bear and generally wanted a .50cal or larger, though some settled on a .45cal. In addition to the .50cal rifles, .54 and .58 caliber rifles were common.

However, the rifle was a White man thing. The aboriginal tribes had been using trade muskets for a long time. Generally smoothebore and typically .62 caliber or there about (equivalent to a 20ga shotgun) they used them as shotguns for hunting as much as muskets.

Due to their practice of using small river gravel when they ran out of lead shot, a rifle in the hands of the native tribes didn't stay a rifle for long.

The aboriginal hunting style was close range due to their use of the bow and arrow. The lack of rifling didn't bother them much since they didn't change their hunting style, and long range shooting remained a White man thing until the end of the frontier. When they hunted buffalo on horseback the common method was to ride pell mell alongside the buffalo and shoot it at close range. It was common for the native tribesmen to go to the local trading post and have the gunsmith there cut their trade musket down to about 14 inches or so.

However, the advent of cartridge firing weapons didn't mean an end to the muzzleloading era, as it still had one last hurrah into the 1870's.

When the USA decided to tear itself apart in the early 1860's with a civil war, the Union immediately sent purchasing agents to Europe and bought up every available inventory of obsolete military muskets.

This served two purposes: 1) it kept the guns out of the hands of the rebel Confederacy and 2) it allowed them to arm a huge army fast. These muskets were typically in the .55 to .58 caliber range, smoothebore, and were caplocks (sometimes converted flintlocks).

As Union industry began to overwhelm the Confederacy and large numbers of rifled weapons became available for the Union's one million man army (massive by 19th Century standards), all of these obsolete smoothebores were warehoused.

When the war ended, the Union sold off every one of these obsolete weapons in vast lots for dirt cheap just to open up the warehouse space. These weapons were then sold off to hardware and dry goods stores around the country where they retailed for a fraction of the price of a new weapon.

As the new frontier really began to open up after the end of the war in 1865, the USA began to have economic problems. There was a recession from 1865 to 1867 and starting in 1873 there was the 'Long Depression'. The Long Depression lasted from 1873 to 1879, with the country still not really recovering from it till 1896.

Because of this, a large percentage of the settlers traveling west into the frontier were the working poor, looking for a new life. They were cash strapped but needed to arm themselves both for protection and for hunting.

While cartridge firing weapons were available, they were expensive. So a great many of those heading west were armed with an obsolete, caplock smoothebore with a bore diameter about like a 28ga shotgun. On the frontier they were often used as shotguns as much as a rifle. They used to say on the frontier, "A man with a shotgun never starves."

 

[snappingturtle]

Got to love a wandering thread! I mean we have covered hunting and its morals, stalking, optimal hunting ranges, calibre, grains, velocity, air guns! some gun history and with thanks to mrostov we are touching on a bit of frontier and civil war history! kind of mad but ever so good!

 

[santaman2000]

.....Nationwide, most hunting kills of big game are 200 yards or less, often much less, especially for archery season......

True, but "most" hunting kills nationwide (deer) are in the heavily wooded eastern states though. Particularly the Southeastern states.