Knives/knife law.

[daveO]

It's strange to me that some here don't think if people were legally entitled to carry any knife they liked in public, there wouldn't be an increase in knife crime.

I think I understand your point. We have an existing knife law that says anyone can carry a knife at any time; as long as it is a 3 inch non-locking folder. You can also own and use a huge variety of other knives as long as you have good reason to. For most people this is a good law as for most people that folding knife will cope with any unexpected knife tasks that you face on a daily basis. For other times when you need a better knife you should be covered by the 'good reason' law. I bet 99.9% of the public would be fine with just a SAK on a daily basis.

Most 'criminal class' types aren't going to carry a SAK or similar though as the main purpose of a knife to them is to intimidate, show off or maybe even use to stab people. Rapid deployment is key to most of the stuff they want to use it for. So if the police search them they will most likely find an illegal weapon and will have the power to arrest them and confiscate the knife. Changing the knife law isn't going to effect the people already carrying illegal knives.

If you make it legal to carry any knife though then the police lose the power to arrest and borderline cases will be able to walk around with any number of weapons. Conversely your average person will still be carrying a SAK because why would you carry a fixed blade or whatever for occasional light use? (Yes it would be nice to carry a locking folder but we've been through the lawyer bashing already). So now you have more people on the street with fixed blades, more people in the pub with large knives, more kids who carry a big knife to feel 'ard. It would be hard to see how knife crime wouldn't rise in that situation. The fights and assaults are probably already occurring but you'd be replacing fists and pool cues etc with pointy stuff.

 

[Janne]

I drive too fast. When I deem the situation safe.
Never (touch wood) had an accident.

 

[Fadcode]

I understand that there is a 'criminal class' for want of a better word. But does everyone think that otherwise good people do not commit crime?

I offer an awkward analogy.
We have speed limits, partly to reduce the number of car crashes and potential pedestrian deaths.
Do only 'bad' people drive too fast? Do normally good people not sometimes make mistakes?
If we removed all speed limits and let people drive as fast as they liked would only 'bad' people have more accidents or could otherwise good people get caught out too?

your analogy is in itself misleading, a person who goes out with a knife, or a car, with the intent of killing someone or hurting them, is totally different from an accident or a mistake, you also make the assumption that if the speed limits were taken away everyone would drive faster, they wouldn't, try driving down the M5 the speed limit is 70, yet most cars, hgv's etc are driving along at under 60 well below the legal limit, there are a few lunatics hurtling along at well over the speed limit...............normally ambulances and police cars.............and speed limits are not imposed in order to reduce crashes and accidents......if they were we would all be driving at 5mph and there would be no accidents...they are there because the Govt sees the speed limit at the safest highest speed we can go at.......one of the reasons slow vehicles are not allowed on motorways is because going slow in the conditions on a motorway is highly dangerous.
As the saying goes the most dangerous nut in a car...is the one behind the wheel.

There is no answer to your question regarding banning knives to cut down knife crime, unless all sharp things are banned too. which although possible,is not feasible, we have to live with the status as it is, the Govt will no doubt ban things along the way, but until they face the problems that cause gang warfare, and blatant violence, youth unrest etc,we have to live with it, the Govt are cutting Police Budgets etc, which is making the situation worse, and until they are willing to put in the needed funds, and tackle the underlying causes, we are stuck with it, and as usual the minority like ourselves will bear the suffering, whilst the perpitrators of these horrific crimes will carry on regardless.

 

[Janne]

I fo not know the situation in UK these days, but from what I hear and read online it seems some violent acts ( stabbings, shootings and mainly acid attacks) ate initiation rites?

 

[santaman2000]

I fo not know the situation in UK these days, but from what I hear and read online it seems some violent acts ( stabbings, shootings and mainly acid attacks) ate initiation rites?

For many gangs around the world the initiation rite is to kill somebody. Who's killed or how it's done are irrelevant.

 

[KenThis]

your analogy is in itself misleading, a person who goes out with a knife, or a car, with the intent of killing someone or hurting them, is totally different from an accident or a mistake, you also make the assumption that if the speed limits were taken away everyone would drive faster, they wouldn't, try driving down the M5 the speed limit is 70, yet most cars, hgv's etc are driving along at under 60 well below the legal limit, there are a few lunatics hurtling along at well over the speed limit...............normally ambulances and police cars.............and speed limits are not imposed in order to reduce crashes and accidents......if they were we would all be driving at 5mph and there would be no accidents...they are there because the Govt sees the speed limit at the safest highest speed we can go at.......one of the reasons slow vehicles are not allowed on motorways is because going slow in the conditions on a motorway is highly dangerous.
As the saying goes the most dangerous nut in a car...is the one behind the wheel.

There is no answer to your question regarding banning knives to cut down knife crime, unless all sharp things are banned too. which although possible,is not feasible, we have to live with the status as it is, the Govt will no doubt ban things along the way, but until they face the problems that cause gang warfare, and blatant violence, youth unrest etc,we have to live with it, the Govt are cutting Police Budgets etc, which is making the situation worse, and until they are willing to put in the needed funds, and tackle the underlying causes, we are stuck with it, and as usual the minority like ourselves will bear the suffering, whilst the perpitrators of these horrific crimes will carry on regardless.

Nope I think you misunderstood my point. I think DaveO understood.
My point is not everyone who goes out in a car has the intention to hurt anyone yet accidents happen.
Similarly not everyone who would carry a knife would go out out to hurt someone yet situations would arise leading to their use in attacking/defending people.
You also contradict yourself. Speed limits are not there to reduce accidents but are the highest safest speed. Seems like the same thing to me.
Also you assume motorways but I'm more thinking people driving faster in built up areas where accidents are more likely due to reduced thinking time and concentration.
Although granted the analogy is awkward as I said.

Also I've not advocated any further banning of knives. In fact if you read my initial post I'm dismayed by the the proposed changes. I like to carry a knife when able to do so. However just because I like/want to carry a knife I'm also aware that I live in a society and must obey the same laws that I would want others to obey, or face possible repercussions. I feel like there is an idea here that only 'bad' people commit knife crime. But then a majority of stabbing are with kitchen knives in the home. Because knives are available in the home, so it is people who are not routinely carrying knives committing these crimes. Yet without any knife laws everybody would be ready and able to pull a knife whenever they wanted.

I definitely don't have all the answers, but I think the current laws do more good than harm. I might feel differently if they directly impacted me but I feel I can currently go about my business and carry an appropriate knife when I choose to. Therefore although arbitrary I see the difference between different types of knives and what they say about those that wish to own or carry them. I can also see the difference between someone with a mora in their backpack and someone with a Stanley knife in their back pocket. However the law has to apply to all if it applies to any surely.

 

[santaman2000]

Nope I think you misunderstood my point. I think DaveO understood.
My point is not everyone who goes out in a car has the intention to hurt anyone yet accidents happen.
Similarly not everyone who would carry a knife would go out out to hurt someone yet situations would arise leading to their use in attacking/defending people.....

Now you're contradicting your self. Your OP asked would it affect knife "crime." Now you include defense (a basic human right) as if it were a crime.

 

[daveO]

Now you're contradicting your self. Your OP asked would it affect knife "crime." Now you include defense (a basic human right) as if it were a crime.

Defense is pretty much regarded as a crime in the UK. We take the welfare of our poor criminals very seriously here and hate to see them get hurt. and by criminals I mean proper criminals. If you defend yourself against a criminal then that makes you a criminal but doesn't mean you get the same rights as criminals. If you carry anything with the intent of defending yourself then you can be arrested. I think you can carry a rape alarm but you have to offer your attacker ear plugs and instructions on how to insert them correctly before using it.

 

[Janne]

And please do not put up razor wire around your property, even if some person had 'cleaned out' your barn/workshop from anything of value a couple of weeks previously.

The police will advice you it is not a good deterrent, as the poor criminals can cut themselves badly and sue you....

Unfortunately a true story.

 

[santaman2000]

...... If you defend yourself against a criminal then that makes you a criminal......

That also makes for skewed statistics on the number of knife crimes.

 

[KenThis]

I think you're being obtuse.
If one has a knife and gets into an altercation then one may use the knife to attack/defend themselves.
As I understand it in the UK at least using a weapon whether to attack or defend is illegal, even if morally justified.
As I pointed out at the beginning this is UK centric. The USA system of being able to defend ones life and property at any cost is not really appropriate.
Also in any altercation with two people pulling knives who can say who is the 'criminal'? Surely both must be guilty?

 

[Mike313]

My take on carrying a knife, or the driving analogy, is simple. If the current law says it's illegal to carry a certain type of knife, or to drive about a certain speed, don't do it. If you don't agree with the current law, don't flout it, campaign to change it. The excuse of 'I'm not the kind of person who would stab someone' or 'I was driving fast but I felt safe to do so' will get you nowhere in a court of law.

 

[Klenchblaize]

What exactly does the Op wish to achieve from this thread?

K

 

[bearbait]

Also in any altercation with two people pulling knives who can say who is the 'criminal'? Surely both must be guilty?

A martial arts teacher of my acquaintance says "When two men fight with knives you need to book two funerals."

 

[sunndog]

What exactly does the Op wish to achieve from this thread?

K

If only we knew lol

 

[Janne]

A fun discussion with a serious background?

 

[daveO]

A martial arts teacher of my acquaintance says "When two men fight with knives you need to book two funerals."

This is the problem with martial arts: Too many rules and not enough definition. For example we know you shouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight but apparently you also shouldn't bring a knife to a cock fight (or vice versa). It's frowned upon to bring a gun to a snowball fight. You shouldn't talk about fight club. Pillow fights are generally discouraged. It's a minefield (fighting with mines is also frowned upon by the way).

 

[Janne]

I received extensive hand to hand combat training, and still remember Rule number 1: Do not get into a situation where you need to fight as there are two outcomes, you will either lose or get very badly hurt.

 

[KenThis]

What exactly does the Op wish to achieve from this thread?

K

I thought I'd made it clear in my initial post.
But surely if you're not interested it'd be easier to just ignore this thread...

 

[Klenchblaize]

I'm very interested but sadly not the brightest of fero rods, hence seeking a wee steer through the more challenging byways of your thread.

K