Film Happy People narrated by Werner Herzog

[Joe tahkahikew]

but you can only live the life you do because the other 7.6 billion people on this overpopulated world are grinding 24/7 in towns and cities

However, I think the whole argument of sustainability falls over when the trapping and hunting is for money not for survival. As soon as anyone starts to hunt for the 'city' the balance is lost. It would be a bit like a sparrowhawk (Accipiter nisus) hunting for its own brood and a thousand other sparrowhawk families that sit around paying for their food; the prey species wouldn't last.

Just my thoughts ....
Broch

Maybe so, but nothing to stop the people in the cities come here or elsewhere is there? Or do you expect us to thank all the moneyaw who live in cities for their kindness?

I never used the word sustainability. `but sustainability is what our life is about. If its not sustainable how come we - and lots of other 1st nation people from around the world - are still living much the same as we've have all done for a long time? If our traditional life is so not sustainable, how come we've been doing it so long? (we make little money sell fur nowadays).

I think the one hawk hunting for other hawks would only catch what the other hawks would have eaten if they too had gone hunting. So no different in the numbers of consumed food there.

 

[Broch]

Maybe so, but nothing to stop the people in the cities come here or elsewhere is there? Or do you expect us to thank all the moneyaw who live in cities for their kindness?

No, definitely not! I don't thank the city folk for staying there and making it possible for me to live the life I do. I'm sorry you interpreted my clumsy words to mean that . It's just that if all those folk did decide to live as you do and, to some extent, as I do the natural resources would not be enough. Man in the overcrowded areas of the world turned to farming all those years ago for that very reason. And yes, there is something stopping them coming - thankfully most of them wouldn't like it, couldn't survive and would miss their wine bars

 

[daveO]

DavO, you make some fair points for a moniyaw ;-) (non speaker of our language), as do Robson Valley and Jan. But let me tell it from where I sit now.

That's the first time I've ever been called a moniyaw. It's a lot better than some things I get called during interweb discussions

It's great to hear your point of view on this since you're a lot closer to that lifestyle than I will ever be. It sounds like you live a lower impact lifestyle than the Siberians though with your mobile camps and less reliance on outside supplies. Maybe more like the Siberian Evenki? I'm certainly not criticising the lifestyle of anyone lucky enough to live in this fashion or suggesting that it's better to live in cities but it can only ever be an option for a very limited number of people and a very thin line is trodden between living in harmony with nature and taking more than nature can provide. These days it's very hard to see any kind of pristine habitat that hasn't had human interference beyond a natural level so our points of reference can seem skewed.

I've read this referred to as 'shifting baseline syndrome' which is basically how every generation resets their view of the world based on how it is during their childhood. The current generation in the UK can see plentiful wildlife, lots of green areas and clean seas and think that there is nothing wrong with the world but they can never really comprehend how much has changed and what has been lost since the industrial revolution or even since the 2nd world war. We're only a generation or so away from indoor plumbing being a novelty and already it's taken to be a basic human right. Oral history counts for a lot but my dad tells me stories of abundant fishing when he was young and I find it hard to picture it or when I was younger I just thought he was exaggerating. This is what makes me wary of believing trappers or hunters when they say that their harvest is sustainable because they aren't seeing any impact on the environment. You can hunt for 40 years or more and never really see the true picture of the impact on the ecosystem. There may be no impact at all or there might even be a positive impact but ecosystems are delicate and massively complex.

There is evidence for example that humans came to America as early hunter gatherers and were the cause of the mass extinction of many large animal species. This wasn't anything more than subsistance hunting but still altered the ecosystem for ever.

 

[Janne]

DaveO, to get the untouched environment we would need to go back a couple of millions years, before the humanoid apes existed?
You are correct in that the baseline is changing.
Most people are not aware of that most of the mighty Amazonas is created/ changed by human actions, it is seen as pristine with just tiny population of hunter gatherers.
Pristine, but being ruined by our civilisation.

As Robson V pointed out on the Beaver thread, those critters do a lot of irreversible changes to their surroundings.
Should we really see the small changes the Siberians in the film, the First Nations, Same and ither Northern peoples influence as bad?

(No question our influence and changes ARE bad. I mean us mainstream people.)

 

[Janne]

People chopping down and using firests in the context of the film, and Joe’s people and other ‘natural people’ are virtually a ‘ neutral’ impact on the environment.

 

[Robson Valley]

Animal extinctions don't need any help from humans, even in North and South America.
You cannot prove that early paleo populations were the causes. It remains a suggestion.

At the time of European contact, the North American bison population was estimated to be 60,000,000.
If First Nations resident paleo humans were so efficient back in that day and time, why were bison not extinct?
They were killed off by Europeans to make way for white-faced range maggots.
A major capital Canadian city was originally named "Pile o'Bones."

I look at the extinctions of large animals across Europe and all I see is human intervention.
I'm not so certain that's true at all.

 

[Janne]

There is no proof the Ice Age mega fauna in Eurasia was killed off by humans. The human population at the end of the Ice Age was around 300 000
Note that Europe stretches all the way to the Ural mountains, so a huge area.

Climate change did it certainly, maybe speeded up slightly by human hunting.

 

[daveO]

Animal extinctions don't need any help from humans, even in North and South America.
You cannot prove that early paleo populations were the causes. It remains a suggestion.

Very true but introduce a new apex predator to any ecosystem and the whole dynamic changes. Many more intellegent people than me will debate that theory for many years to come I think. It's been a while since I looked into the theories but I'm sure it was the slower moving animals with lesser defences that disappeared or the predators that were competition and threats to humans. Bison are pretty capable at surviving as they're a well developed prey animal.

I think we've got a bit beyond the original point here though. Janne said the Siberians were living in harmony with nature and I questioned his definition of harmony. Living in the UK it's very hard to picture people living in anything approaching natural harmony since our landscape is 100% artificial now.

 

[Janne]

I do not mind diverting from the originsl, as it has lead to a very interesting discussion!

 

[Robson Valley]

I'm working on delaying my own personal extinction for as long as possible.

The documentaries do showcase a fairly unique niche for very few people that'shard to replicate.

 

[Leshy]

Great share , Herzog really is a master .
And a good discussion going here too ..

 

[Janne]

I hope more guys here watches it.

I really "liked" that anti corruption talking politician, bringing little "gifts" so they would elect him again...........

The potatoes they grow there must be very tasty. Potatoes grown in the Arctic are very flavoursome.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

Janne said the Siberians were living in harmony with nature and I questioned his definition of harmony. Living in the UK it's very hard to picture people living in anything approaching natural harmony since our landscape is 100% artificial now.

Perhaps you might share with us what you believe is harmony with nature then? But not in your country - maybe in our forests and in Russia where we share mostly the same things.

thank yo

Oh, dear I see you've answered that question but i canot see how to remove what `i have now done. sorry.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

That's the first time I've ever been called a moniyaw. It's a lot better than some things I get called during interweb discussions

Maybe more like the Siberian Evenki? These days it's very hard to see any kind of pristine habitat that hasn't had human interference beyond a natural level so our points of reference can seem skewed.

I've read this referred to as 'shifting baseline syndrome' which is basically how every generation resets their view of the world based on how it is during their childhood. ....Oral history counts for a lot but my dad tells me stories of abundant fishing when he was young and I find it hard to picture it or when I was younger I just thought he was exaggerating. This is what makes me wary of believing trappers or hunters when they say that their harvest is sustainable because they aren't seeing any impact on the environment. You can hunt for 40 years or more and never really see the true picture of the impact on the ecosystem. There may be no impact at all or there might even be a positive impact but ecosystems are delicate and massively complex.

 

[daveO]

I still can't quite get the definition right in my head, partly because I know so little of the natural environment up there apart from what I've seen on TV. The use of skidoos and chainsaws, outboard motors on boats, stuff like that seems out of kilter with natural processes to me. It gives people the opportunity to support a larger community and put down fixed roots rather than live nomadically which seems more natural to me. Harmony with nature suggests taking just enough to survive and moving with the seasons to different locations. Once you start using nature to make money or barter goods then it seems like a step away from a natural life.

You mentioned how city dwellers rely on food and goods from all over the world but fuel for skidoos, metal, medicine, all kinds of things have to come from elsewhere. You can certainly reduce your needs for such things right down but it's the same thing on a lesser scale. No one would willingly give up a good steel axe for stone tools and the difference between using the two is very minimal in terms of the impact on nature and is a hand forged axe really that much less 'natural' than a worked stone tool when you think about it? Is using dog sleds any better than a skidoo? You would have to catch a lot more food to feed the dogs for a start.

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

Dave, dopn't worry about being called m,oneyaw it just polite way of saying you are not Nehiyawk or Cree!! We do have bad words for Anglos if you wish.

I don't know much about Siberian Evenki so I can't comment.

Yes, Yesterday when I was younger is the same here too. My grandmother said the food was better tasting and my grandfather said there was more game and easier to catch. When I was in uk my friend's mother said food tasted better when she was younger......ha ha.

But there is still plenty of land here where humans have no impact. We have 2nd biggest country in the world with the most lakes and rivers than anywhere else in the world if you all added them up. and have less roads than any country. UP north Saskatchewan where we live there are almost no roads and no tarmac roads like in England. We have lakes and rivers with no English or Cree names and I know when my friend from UK came to our land that him and his wife were first moneyaw to paddle the river we travelled in any memory.. From where I am now you can travel to the north pole, or maybe Hudson Bay or the west coast of Canada and not cross road, rail or meet another Moneyaw, nehiyawk or any other 1st nation. But the distances are so great a man could not carry enough food on his back or in canoe to survive that long.

/enju

 

[Joe tahkahikew]

Is using dog sleds any better than a skidoo? You would have to catch a lot more food to feed the dogs for a start.

Dogs need feeding. Need training Takes time but food is free. (Lake trout). Skiddo easy to use, but needs gas - which cost money and breaks down. Don't have to catch food for skiddo..

most use Skiddo now as you can travel further and faster.

 

[daveO]

Dave, dopn't worry about being called m,oneyaw it just polite way of saying you are not Nehiyawk or Cree!! We do have bad words for Anglos if you wish.

I don't know much about Siberian Evenki so I can't comment.

I wasn't offended don't worry Ray mears did a good program with the Evenki. Quite short but gives a good snapshot of the life.

 

[Robson Valley]

Come and try it. Even 6 months in northern Saskatchewan. Been there. Done that.
I lived on Nipew = in Cree, The Lake of the Dead, on the Churchill.
Kind of south of Joe's place but we have so many millions of square miles of wilderness,
it all speaks the same silence when you listen.

Come and try it. The best campsites that I have ever seen are about 20+km up the Holmes River
and that's no more than 30 miles out of my village. Level flat, stoney, sheltered in the forest, good running water.

 

[Tony]

Here's the four video's that make up the series

Spring

Summer

Autumn

Winter