Down sleeping bag?

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Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
There are about a billion sleeping bag threads on this site, and more on Outdoor magic. Someone just got a Marmot Sawtooth for £180 http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142842, which was a very good deal, but a bit more than you wanted to go.

You've said minus 5-10 degrees - which means it could be a very decent 3 season bag, or moving into a 4 season bag - and the costs go up when you hit 4 season. The temp/season thing seems to be a bit unclear around that temp rating. It depends how you sleep, etc as well. Alpkit have this 5 year old guide to various bags, which is sort of still useful https://www.alpkit.com/sleeping-bags/compare .

At £150ish its going to be tight - the benchmark (for price/value) Alpkit Skyehigh 700 (minus 8) is currently £175. The Rab Ascent 700 (slightly warmer?) is £188 at Go Outdoors http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/rab-asc...awid=85386&awpid=0&awcr=iwq63a0xpr000fru01b0p

Blacks still have the ME Titan 550 at £150 - I've got the Classic 500 (which I've yet to actually use), and the fit/spec are both good, buts closer to 3 season.

If you dont need it immediately, I'd wait. Its certainly worth looking at what people are selling in classifieds on this site, and on Outdoor Magic http://forums.outdoorsmagic.com/forumdisplay.php/10-Classifieds-Section#1YKHA2dpISGFvCIJ.97 - you might pick up a good deal, since sometimes people sell off stuff just because it doesn't work for them, wrong fit, etc. And if your near Alpkit's HQ, it might be worth going in to see if there are any 2nds, etc. I dont know if these guys do bags, but might be worth a look anyway http://www.lgo-direct.co.uk/ .And there is the fabled Rab outlet http://forums.outdoorsmagic.com/showthread.php/52907-Rab-outlet-in-Derby#iSksIoAZrQ7MyYue.97

There were a lot of Black Friday deals, many of which were just 'deals'. Although your looking at a winterish bag, there is a good chance something might come up in the Winter sales. The Rab 700 or the Marmot Sawtooth would work really well, but unless there is a very good discount, perhaps nearer the £170 mark.
 

Barney Rubble

Settler
Sep 16, 2013
553
283
Rochester, Kent
youtube.com
With that budget, there's only one place I'd consider and it's got to be ALPKIT. Their Skyhigh range will meet your requirements. They have one bag called the skyhigh 500 marked at £150 but the comfort limit is -4 so It's not quite in your temp range but another £25 quid will get you their -8 bag.

I've been using one of their synthetic 'Mountain Ghost' bags for the last year now and have been very happy with it. It has a comfort limit of -1 and does me fine for majority of the year.
 

para106

Full Member
Jul 24, 2009
701
8
68
scotland
You could always go for a decent 3 season bag & put a cheaper bag inside it. I've used a 3 season bag with a Tesco down microlight bag as a liner with great results. You can pick up a Tesco job for £20 or less - or you could. I currently use a Mountain Equipment Titan 850 which has been great. Keep an eye out for the sales I picked mine up for £170. Cheers.
 
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Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,665
McBride, BC
1. Shape. How active will you have been before you hit the sack? My best is a "barrel bag", widest in the middle to stretch, toss and turn.
2. Hood. How much protection and warmth do you ask of the bag top? I need my neck warm! Just me.
3. Insulation. What are the chances of wet? Synthetic Hollofill for the bottom half and nice cozy down for the top half might be the best.
4. What are your plans to get off the ground? Hundreds of choices here.
5. para106 (#4) has a great idea to stack 2 bags. Did that, car-camping, and dang near melted to death.
6. Going to be maybe -28C here in the mountains again tonight. Great test site, no? No. I thought so.
 

Wayne

Mod
Mod
Dec 7, 2003
3,753
645
51
West Sussex
www.forestknights.co.uk
I think down bags are are a bit overkill for UK weather and too pricey for what they are, unless you get the 4+ season types.

Have a look at the mountain hardware lamina range, this bag has a comfort limit of -15 and is £155.00. They get very good reviews. I know two people with these bags and they seem excellent;

http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/mountain-hardwear-lamina-z-torch-sleeping-bag-d2232281?id_colour=108

Tonyuk

Tony my view is the complete opposite. Why would anyone want anything other than a down bag? Lighter and warmer more durable. A natural product make sure down is sourced ethically.

I will never ever own another synthetic bag.
 

Tonyuk

Settler
Nov 30, 2011
933
81
Scotland
Tony my view is the complete opposite. Why would anyone want anything other than a down bag? Lighter and warmer more durable. A natural product make sure down is sourced ethically.

I will never ever own another synthetic bag.

Well that's a fair view but i disagree. I've seen soaked down turn to mush plenty of times when either driving rain or melting snow has got to them in our temperate climate. True for similar insulation down is lighter but synthetics are not far off these days, and are far more durable in the wet, mud, etc.. Easier to clean too. I would much rather have a down bag in the proper arctic but for UK use i find the extra cost a bit pointless myself, but i wont be the one using the bag so whatever floats your boat.

Tonyuk
 

TheNugget

Member
May 14, 2015
19
0
UK
Also, it depends if you want to pack and carry it.
The Lamina mentioned weighs >1.7kg and will be relatively large and not compress as well as a down bag.
Also the down bag may cost a little more but will last longer.

As in anything, what you want to use it for is the key.
 

Highbinder

Full Member
Jul 11, 2010
1,257
2
Under a tree
Also the down bag may cost a little more but will last longer.

Is there a reason people say this? Why would down last longer than synthetic fill?

I've only owned two down bags, my current one is about 5 years old, a Rab 400g fill, and it's noticeably less warm than when I first bought it. I've also managed to wet it out a few times through a combination of inexperience (''back in the day'' ;)) and inattention. Blustery wet weather combined with tarp or hammock/tarp camping and I think I'd rather pack an extra half kilo and have a bomb proof synthetic bag.

My current winter bag is the good old British army arctic bag. It's huge but I love the robustness. I think, at least for my uses, when it comes to replacing it I'll be going for a -10c synthetic bag which I can bolster with my DIY down blanket.
 

TheNugget

Member
May 14, 2015
19
0
UK
Whilst both will lose loft overtime and therefore warmth, it is generally accepted by "experts" that this happen more quickly with Synthetic. Dependant on usage and storage Synthetic might last 3-5 years and down 8-10.

Also, re-sale value is much higher for down, especially known brands. So take my recent example. I paid about £150 for a Rab bag about 6 years ago and I recently sold it for about £80. Synthetics you might get half that. So overall over the long term if you change bags every 5 or so years then there is no real price differential.
 
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Old Bones

Settler
Oct 14, 2009
745
72
East Anglia
Is there a reason people say this? Why would down last longer than synthetic fill?

Synthetic bags have been a round for a long time, but down far longer. PHD has a very good article about the relative pros and cons of both http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/the-truth-about-sleeping-bags, and while they make pretty much all their stuff with down, they fully admit there are times where the better tolerance towards damp might make synthetic more attractive. And I've been wondering a little about down, since I have asthma, and sometimes find down clothes a little itchy.

However, synthetics do tend to lose loft - my 22 (!) year old Snugpak Osprey 12 has been stored very carefully, but its not as lofty as it once was, and thus I'd probably downgrade it by a season. Thats fine, I've got my money's worth, but no matter how much I wash it and fluff it up, its never going to be the temp rating it once was (and it wasn't the temp rating it was supposed to be in the first place). If you store a synthetic bag in its stuff sack, then your going to kill the loft even quicker. Thats doesn't mean that something like Hollofill, etc cannot keep you warm for 30 years - it can. But its not exactly lightweight. But most synthetic fillings tend to lose loft, and at some point, you'll have to replace it.

On the other hand, down can be revived pretty well by just a decent wash (after 5 years, send yours to a professional company like these guys - http://www.mountaineering-designs.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showprod_CLEAN, and it will really fluff up), and will last much longer overall (figures seem to vary, but twice the useful service of a synthetic wouldn't be unfair, although 'last a lifetime' does tend to crop up a lot when looking through the net) than a synthetic bag. Its also much more efficient as an insulator, as well as more compact and lighter, as someone pointed out a while back on Outdoor Magic:

for comparison purposes----got 2 winter s/bags ---both equally warm---down 1200gms --packs easily into 13 litre stuff sac---synthetic 2350 gms --struggle to get it into 30 litre stuff sac-

Back in 1994, when I bought my Snugpak, that bag was about £125 RRP (I got it for £87). A down bag in those days was at least £100 more expensive than that. So synthetic was pretty popular, especially once Snugpak brought out a bag which wasn't huge, etc.

The £100 gap is largely still true, when you look at a MH lamina and a Rab Ascent, but of course in real terms that gap is less, because in real terms, those prices have dropped a lot, thanks to Chinese production, the net, etc. That same Snugpak bag is still £125 RRP, but can be had for roughly £100. If the price had been the same in real terms, you'd be looking at twice that. So the gap has narrowed, and thanks to Alpkit, etc, the difference is perhaps £50. So buying a decent down bag then was much more pricey than it is now, hence one of the reasons for synthetic. Now, you can afford to go with down if you want, and DWR etc have mitigated some of the downsides of down filling to some extent. And while a MH laminia Z Torch is OK at roughly minus 15, it weighs 1.78kg and costs £155. Alpkit will do you the SkyeHigh 900, which is rated at minus 13, costs £200, and weighs 1.45kg. Thats roughly the same price, etc as a Rab Ascent 900 at Go Outdoors. For the extra £50, thats 300g saving and easier packing - long term, thats not a lot.

Down is more cost effective long term, and its easier to pack, etc. Synthetic is fine in lots of ways https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/54025/, and I hear good things about MH, although I found the foot cut too narrow for me, but thats a personal thing. My kids are fine with Vango bags - cheap, warm, but have all the compression of a breeze block. Thats OK, but if I was carrying a bag for 20km on my back, down makes a lot more sense! The bulk of sleeping bags from well known high level brands (Rab, PHD, ME, Western Mountaineering, Marmot, TNF, etc) are all down - MH do a lot of synthetics, but their top bags are down. So the market does see down as suitable for both the UK and other countries, not just the Arctic, etc.

Buy once buy right is always good advice, especially when being warm and comfortable are essential. Spending good money on a good product, no matter what the technology, is seldom wasted. But ultimately, its whats needed, and whats best for that person.
 

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